Author Topic: The old guy comes here to say Hello  (Read 5361 times)

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Offline shiva

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The old guy comes here to say Hello
« on: August 29, 2015, 04:33:53 AM »
Well, finally decided to pop in and say hello. been very busy and all, and VP is no longer part of my life, but still, pretty sure Tim is finally happy and doesn't have to bug me any more.
First off, just want to say thank you for everyone's efforts to get Trigon playable in VP9. Reading some of the posts here, there were some pretty big changes made in VP over the years (Trigon was done in VP5) so it's nice to see people still remember it and even play it now after 12 YEARS! As the author, you just can't get a better feeling than that.
I should mention the reason for the 3 scripts. Simple, I split it so I can find things myself while I was writing it.  :)
It's so nice to see things going so strong within the entire pinball community. So many new advances even now, it boggles the mind. When I first opened up my site, right after Williams announced they were closing their doors, I wanted to do my part to keep the (very tiny) spark alive and found wpcmame, and then the original master clean roms for them. Since then, VP came along, then pinmame/Vpinmame, Future pinball, Unit3d, BAM and even now, new things, like VP10, a new Unit3d beta,and improvements to the xml so FP actually plays "right". Some of the new creations are just jaw dropping, and the next couple years will be amazing to see and I will look forward too.
My VP time has come and gone, but always feel free to ask me if you want to redo something, as I might have spares with my resources (like the new pf image, I drew that for a FP release  just to piss off Black)  and a bit of my old stuff is still available here and there. Mostly though, I just now play like everyone else does.
Nice to be here, and just came in to say hello to my friends
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Offline Itchigo

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 04:47:35 AM »
Glad you finally made it!

Trigon was one of those that I would always show off, saying "this looks like it could've been real" when I first started with VP. It was hard to make a DB2S for, but not as hard as you'd think. It's not that I didn't get the code, but more putting things in the right place. With 5,000 lines (approx) across 3 scripts, I thought of combining them all into one. In the end, my old way worked best. Finding the object name (Reel1) and finding where it was called, then add the backglass call.

I did have one I was trying to take the title away from Trigon with, but I suck at graphics, so it may be a while (unless you want it). :Whistle: I have it fully coded and playable too... Needs sounds, graphics, and DMD animations which is really ironic when you realize I don't play many DMD tables. I was never a fan of that era, in fact I left the business about that time.

I haven't really played VP10 yet, once they finish it I guess I'll add it, but I'm invested in VP9 because I have 700+ playing 2 screen tables. VP 10 has that "fake" look that FP does (imho). Nice, but not real.

Maybe AJ will come out and say hey. He is here, but he's incognito because he was worried people are still pissed at him.
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Offline shiva

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 03:23:53 PM »
Glad you finally made it!

Trigon was one of those that I would always show off, saying "this looks like it could've been real" when I first started with VP. It was hard to make a DB2S for, but not as hard as you'd think. It's not that I didn't get the code, but more putting things in the right place. With 5,000 lines (approx) across 3 scripts, I thought of combining them all into one. In the end, my old way worked best. Finding the object name (Reel1) and finding where it was called, then add the backglass call.

I did have one I was trying to take the title away from Trigon with, but I suck at graphics, so it may be a while (unless you want it). :Whistle: I have it fully coded and playable too... Needs sounds, graphics, and DMD animations which is really ironic when you realize I don't play many DMD tables. I was never a fan of that era, in fact I left the business about that time.

I haven't really played VP10 yet, once they finish it I guess I'll add it, but I'm invested in VP9 because I have 700+ playing 2 screen tables. VP 10 has that "fake" look that FP does (imho). Nice, but not real.

Maybe AJ will come out and say hey. He is here, but he's incognito because he was worried people are still pissed at him.
I gave up on VP. When I had a look at VP10, all I went was WTF, and then put it away. I know some people are very excited about it, and I personally am so looking forward to the 250th separate version of Addams family, but i will stick with FP or pinball arcade. So many years of playing the same damn games will do that, and despite it's various problems, there's that wild creativeness with the FP games that's been lacking in VP for a long time. The Polygame stuff is really pushing the limits, and you never know, I may even drop in a couple more things (under a assumed identity of course) if I ever have the spare time.

Actually, the reason VP now has that fake look is because VP is using the same models that FP uses.  :)

I just like doing my own thing now anyway. Just want to be a hedge designer, dream up and build concepts as that is what I enjoy doing the most. Still, really liking BAM, and the new physics, especially in games like Buccaneer, certainly is starting to relight the old pilot light within me. It certainly helps that the community is so team orientated, you have to beat all the people offering to help off with a stick sometimes.

So sad that VP went off the opposite way, where it became ego, star power and jealously, and I really hope the people there have learned that the more minds behind a game, the better it is, and the greater the rewards. I guess I was the same way, and though I tried to change for the better, a lot of those same people wouldn't let me. Still happens even now, some people just can't forgive me for a  table I did 12 years ago. But that exactly is what it was (and still is judging from the reactions I got) so I just work in something else.

I think the community itself is the reason, a lot of old old VP authors moved over and stayed with FP, and everyone gets along so much better over there. Even Tii is there, and others like AJ or KidC, or Stein, would be welcome with open arms. I'm sure AJ thinks I'm one of those people, but it's years ago, and though I disagreed with him sometimes (okay, a lot) during that time, I still would rather have him running VPF now compared to the alternate. Certainly can't blame him for leaving, and I am sure others who were around that era would tell him the same. Time changes things.
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Offline Itchigo

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 08:23:16 PM »
I saw Stein at vpf a few months ago.

This is from AJ in case you haven't seen. I didn't give away his ID, but it does explain what happened at the old vpf. I can't give his true identity away, but he did say it was ok to post this.

July 09, 2014, 07:00:19 PM
Wouldn't call myself a Rogue... more like an infamous deserter. You came in just before the original VPForums.com went to it's grave. I say infamous because I'm AJ - the original owner and creator of VPForums.com. I took on a task back in the day when Visual Pinball & VPM were in it's infancy. I think there may have been a total of 15-20 tables when I pulled AJ's Pinball together. There were some familiar names back then... Shiva (from ShivaSite), Destruk, and Randy Davis. Since I couldn't code Visual Basic at the time, I was dedicated to writing forum code and creating the VP community. I did work on several tables since I was pretty decent at Photoshop. The original T2 was a biggie for me - I figured out how to make the metal face look real and 3-D. I spent a non-stop 27 hours testing, touching up, and coding. It looked good for VP4 or 5/dogfood build at the time. Looks nothing like T2 Chrome Edition nowadays!

Anyway, you are the only one who actually knows it's me (and would like to keep it that way for now). I haven't said hello to any of the old crew - I think they would have my head for the disarray I caused in the community! I'm sure they think I abandoned everything, which I did - but for a few good reasons. The headaches of the problem children on the forum were getting to be old. The forum was up for 7 years!  I was also in the middle of a long, bitter divorce. I moved across the country. I spent months trying to find a job. Any money I did have went to my daughter and stacking bills. It took me awhile to recover. In hindsight, I should have handed it off to one of the guys. Instead, the server company wiped everything after 45 days of non-payment. I only had bits and pieces of a backup. I did find a directory of all the old tables from the time just before vpf went down. I'm sure some people would understand. I've read through every post out there about VPF.com and anything that referenced my name. I saw a few were concerned for my health and welfare, but most had the attitude of "fuck that piece of shit!".
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Offline shiva

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 03:36:27 PM »
It's a sad thing to say, but others left for the same reason. Just wasn't worth the effort, and some people seemed so intent to drive out others, others shouted people down, and I guess everyone got what they wanted in the end. As far as I am concerned, they can have it. I look back at the very beginning, and think about what I would do over again, i never would have even started what I started. Just wasn't worth it, and the best decision I ever made was to just turn my back and walk away when I did. The only reason I did all this was because all I ever wanted to do was make pinball tables, and the time I spent doing other things just wasn't worth it to me.

Now I can do that, and far happier doing so, others can take on the stress and unhappiness. My admiration of the FP community and what they managed to accomplish with their spirit and creativity was exactly what I tried to do during my time with VP, and I am so sorry to see VP devolve into just another rom emulator. It wasn't that it could be better, it should have been better. There was so much talent that was frittered away, that's the real shame about all of this.

You know what? It's not even worth talking about anymore. They are happy over there, you are happy over here, I'm happy over some where else, Statler and Waldorf are happy over at PN, so maybe that's the way it should be now. I just want to talk about pinball, and how to make them. I would be happy to talk about that, especially if I get to show off how brilliant I actually am.  ;)

Fire away if you want to, pretty sure my answers may surprise you.
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Offline Itchigo

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2015, 03:42:59 AM »
Nah, I know exactly where you're coming from. AJ's told me about the "old days". I've said several times that management is "head babysitter". :Green: The names change, but the personalities don't. When one leaves, another takes their place. Guess it's all about keeping the balance, huh? :Content: But that was all before my time. I wasn't even computer literate when I got 9.01. I had to be told about subfolders for roms before I even got VPinmame working.

I created this place because my Yolasite was lame. It's actually still up- I don't know why. I decided to try my hand at (for lack of a better term) a mini vpf. After that I tried freeforums.net with TimPinball, a name a childhood friend gave me. Then a friend (Pintrepid) offered to host a full blown site, and Rogue Pinball was born. Paul thought this was an attempt at a "spite site" coming on the heels of the "chat wars". That may have entered into the name a bit, but not the intent. This has always been a place of my own I could hang out and have fun. The Rogue name was probably a bit of spite. One of the many names batted around was "RogueVPSite". Balls of Steel was shot down because some gay site had it.... :Rolleyes: (jk). But every site, like companies, has to have it's own gimmick. I liken vpf to Wal-Mart because they have everything. VPU's gimmick is it has Sam tables. Our's is twofold. First, my cabinet backup is shared with all members. You can download anything you like that I have in my cab. Second we have FS woodrails created by not just anyone, but a former NASA engineer. He buys schematics to get the ruleset PERFECT. Older pins are not for everyone, but no one is doing them. That's a niche that needs to be filled right there. Plus, back when I had time I used to do fs conversions with a working backglass for vp8's that didn't have a vp9 version (Thunderbolt).

I've heard so many things that vp9 has this issue, and vp10 has this, and my conclusion is this: I'm happy that vp exists at all, and is freeware. Before I was computer literate I used to play the pinball that came with xp (whatever the hell the name was :Banghead:). Then I went in search of cd-roms to buy to play more, and I found vp. So what if it isn't perfect, I'm happy to have it at all. The fact that I have 700 working 2 screen tables is just gravy. I can play tables I didn't even see as an operator.

Have you switched completely over to vp10, or are you still working in vp9?

And you aren't that old by the way, from what I remember you're younger than me. :Whistle:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 03:47:44 AM by Itchigo »
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Offline shiva

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 02:39:00 PM »
That's the way it is, when I started, I didn't expect all the blind hatred and jealousy, or the lack of understanding that the laws of the land also applies to the internet. A lot of things you do have to understand and learn, other than wiping up a basic site and expecting millions of people to join up. You do become very isolated, you have to be to handle the various problems and the pressures of maintaining a site. look, it's a nasty horrible vile job, especially when you have to deal with truly ugly and repulsive people, and it's even worse when you choose to do so, for free. My bad, my mistake, fixed.

I don't use VP at all, not even on my computer. I use FP from now on, perfect for building layouts without the excessive detail work needed like VP use to do. scripting and graphics are very optional with me. I looked at VP10, but it's just too much effort to learn and work with, the code geeks got a hold of it, and made it too complex for me to even consider spending the huge amount of time just to learn how to use it properly. I don't want to spend months just studying and teaching myself how to to use a program before I could even build anything, when I could just do what I want to do very easily in FP. It really is a case is it doesn't matter how good a program actually is, it's only as good as the amount of people (or specifically, just me) that are able to use it. VP and it's complexity is just too much of a time commitment for me, and for a community that would be far less appreciative of it than the FP community. That's just my opinion, if someone is just as happy with VP, then that's great.

Nearly all of the EM guys moved on mass to FP, people like Popotte are still very active in fact, and there's quite a few releases every year. With the new specialized physics for EM's, they certainly should play better than VP8 or even 9 now, and with BAM added it is very impressive. A lot of others will be repackaged with the new physics as well over time, so if you are really in to EM, oddly enough FP will be the superior editor more and more as time goes on. Still have a ways to go to catch up with VP in quantity, but the quality has certainly gotten a lot better over time, but with today's standards, it takes a lot more time to redraw and test and massage the physics for each game. 12 years ago, people were just happy if someone found a flyer image with enough resolution to use as the pf image, now, people expect pixel by pixel redraws, and that could add months.

BTW, I am older, I was on route with a operator in '78, so respect your elders young man.  :)
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Offline Itchigo

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2015, 03:12:27 AM »
I've read some posts that some people enjoyed the site, and were sad it had gone. Let's just leave it at it brought joy to some, even if it was a lot of work. :Smile:

The VP "god" likes FP?! Say it ain't so! Blasphemy!! :Content: I just don't have the time to learn FP, or even VP10. It would be like starting over to me. Same goes for primitives. I can use flipper primitives, but that's about it. I did at one time want to try to make an FP table, but that was more to be able to say I've done it. I've used this example before, but FP to me is like "driving someone else's car. Sort of similar, but different. Just "feels weird" is the best way I can think of. I'm glad to see someone has picked up FP with Bam and other things, I never wanted to see it die. I'm really glad that FP authors are letting people use their graphics for VP, and the other way around too. That kind of cooperation is important for the communities. It wasn't always like that...  I'M one of those that are happy with decent res. :Green: When I had my other job I'd find a VP8 with decent graphics, replace all the blocky rubbers, and make a working backglass, turning it into a fs table. I can't do a redraw because I suck at art. :Whistle: But I can take the top 10 layers of dirt off it, by replacing the rubbers, and other objects. Then that will suffice until someone comes along who wants to do a ground up.

I see something similar to your example at vpf all the time. "Hey, where's the stickynote high score"? Completely passing by it took a lot of time and effort to make this, and this person could learn to add this little thing via the tutorials out there. Then he could add it to all his games. I'm doing that with my cab- adding analog plunger support on all 700 tables. I'm through the "A"s. :Wink:

I'd been going on my dad's routes since I was little. I don't even know when, but I remember Bally's Bow and Arrow coming out. Then he had a licensing issue with a jukebox, and he took the company bankrupt. He restructured, and sold me the company for 1$. :Green: So technically, I was President and CEO of Tim Todd Services (my name and my brother's name). Hey, it got me laid at the time. :Whistle: I'd actually been running it since I was 16, but I think I was about 20 when I was CEO. Probably the only time I'll be able to ever say that, so I'm making the most of it. :Green: We even had 2 arcades (at different times) when I was involved. After that I bought my Defender (still have it). My dad still operates to this day, at the age of 77.

I was going to say it would be cool to have a beer with you at Tamoore's party next year, but you live a lot further away than I thought.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 03:21:44 AM by Itchigo »
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Offline shiva

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2015, 03:35:37 PM »
Pair of old guys then. :)
It doesn't matter what you use, it's still pinball after all, that's what matters. I work in FP not just for the editor, but because of the people there. FP does drive me nuts, not just the wonky things about it, but what it could have been if it wasn't for the developer being so stubborn and anal. It took a year of begging just to get him to add walls that drop, but he took everything as a criticism, and it wasn't. We all saw just how much better FP could be with some small simple changes. He did reappear a year ago and seemed to be much happier, so that's nice, because god damn, was Black such a pain in the ass to even talk too way back then.

I think I'm so happy because with FP because there is so much going on there, so much wild creativity, it reminds me so much of the time in VP 12 - 14 years ago. There's now talk of combining the various exe's, adding bam and zed physics to a package installer, and fixing some of the really annoying bugs, and just have one complete package. All for that, and that's a big thing for me to say as I have always jumped in with both feet to protect authors rights, but, pretty apparent that Chris just doesn't care any more about development.

Yeah, just a bit far from each other, one of these days, it's on my bucket list, to visit the east coast, haven't been to the states in many years (even though I live about a 10 minute drive to the border!) and hopefully, I will be able to drink beer by then (really bad for the stomach I have) and I certainly wanted to attend Pin Expo. I hate being stuck here with nothing but Stern machines to play.  ;(
 

 
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Offline Itchigo

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2015, 12:00:09 PM »
As long as it's old SS Sterns, I'm ok with that. :Green: That's the era I like the most. It's also what I build in, as you may have seen.

http://roguepinball.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=39

But I do have 1 original (if it's ever finished as people keep crapping out on doing artwork for it), I thought it would have a chance at taking the title away from Trigon :Whistle:. The weird part about this is- these are not the kinds of games I play. It screams to be a DMD game, DMD games are when I lost interest. Kind of weird in that respect, but I will admit- it's not half bad imo.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 12:08:23 PM by Itchigo »
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Offline shiva

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2015, 09:14:32 PM »
It's not the old Sterns, just the new garbage. All they have as well, so it's very depressing. Need my Bally fix...
Looks good, I can't help though, pretty tied up with other commitments that I have been putting off all summer. BTW... Keep dreaming...  :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 09:28:05 PM by shiva »
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Offline Itchigo

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Re: The old guy comes here to say Hello
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2015, 10:18:57 PM »
Yeah, you can have the new crap. :Green:

BTW... Keep dreaming...  :)



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